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Capping vs LD/Chasing - Fog & Flag Perma-IFF Discussion

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by meph, Sep 22, 2016.

  1. meph

    meph Member

    i notice not many ppl have commented on there being really ANY difficulty for cappers thus far. (maybe with the exception of outrunning perma iff flag hacks hehe)

    but for real: almost every map seems to have straightforward routes that you can kind've see ahead (literally... there's nofog) and plan out. as for no fog: i can see how it certainly helps defenders survey the map... but i really dislike it. if nofog is still in this game to help defenders spot cappers... i think there are other things you can do to balance that aren't so hacker-y.

    most maps seem like grab, 1 bowl, dj directly home. i'm not trying to claim this isn't a fair strategy in most tribe games (llama is it's own art form), but ya i haven't heard a single complaint from cappers yet about there being, well, any difficulty at all in running routes.

    am i misguided with a LD bias or something? if you're going to have simplistic route design, (obvious palette smoothed bowls are obvious) plz get rid of nofog immediately, i really don't understand why it was EVER included in tandem with flag iffs (maybe keep 1, never both).

    so ya, all you cappers out there, with your first gut response: is capping easier in midair than other tribes game: yes/no? why? ty
  2. HeaDCReePS

    HeaDCReePS Private Tester

    I loved the mind game that T1 had with no flag iffs and fog. No doubt it added a layer of depth to the game that most people didn't see(lelz). However, with no flag iffs, comes hiding. There is no way you will convince a new community of Midair players to play by the honor rules we played by in T1. That is one worry. The other worry is that the game would be too hard for the large majority of new players and that they would lose interest fast. It's hard enough getting new players to understand the very basics of CTF even when they know where the flag is at. Awareness in CTF is not something you can teach. It's not something a newb is going to figure out quickly.

    The bonus of flag iffs is the increased awareness. Decision making is a lot easier when you know where the flag is at and how much time you have before it's capped etc. Learning these things takes forever without iffs. When I started playing Midair with dudes from every tribes community who were used to flag iffs, I saw how easy it was for them to keep up with me in certain areas of the game. I had a big experience advantage in LT compared to some of these guys. I saw how much the flag iffs helped them learn the positioning and timing of the game. That is a huge step to get over. Take flag iffs away and you slow down the community's learning curve.

    As for ease of routes and no-fog - you could make the maps harder to navigate, you could make the terrain less forgiving, but why make such a thing harder? You want people to play this game and enjoy it. The movement is fun, why make it harder for people to enjoy? I think the no-fog helps balance the ease of route running. A lot of the routes you will face in Midair are faster than the average T1 route(math actually proves this). The added awareness of no-fog helps you position yourself against the faster routes. Most good offensive players will run well-timed routes, so lock down D doesn't really happen against a good offense just like in T1.

    Also you can 1 bowl and dj home in T1..if you have enough health after a grab you. The fix for this is the same in Midar...hit shots on stand.

    Basically it comes down to this, if you liked playing in good/high level T1 pickups(which were rare in late-gen T1), flag-iffs and ease of route running helps people achieve a higher skill much faster and we have more chances to play games that simulate good/high level T1 pickups. Most good T1 players knew the maps so well it was like we were playing with no-flag iffs and no-fog anyways(some people actually did). I had very similar thoughts like yours when I first started playing. I had my gripes. But the more I've played, the more I've realized it's time to let some things go. The game is really fun when we get a good pickup going. Play some pickups and you will see.
    Logic, Not-Dare, XU1 and 3 others like this.
  3. meph

    meph Member

    you make some nice points about making the game accessible to a majority of people; and in your own words "As for ease of routes and no-fog - you could make the maps harder to navigate, you could make the terrain less forgiving, but why make such a thing harder?"

    to me the answer is simple: small learning curves destroy competitive longevity.

    let's take dota 2 -- which is unquestionably THE most lucrative and competitive free game video game ever created, period. obviously mobas are inherently different from fps's, but bear with me.

    dota 2 has over 100+ characters and around 100 individual items that any character can buy. this is inherently problematic for new players vs. vets -- but i would argue FUELS the player's impetus to improve as they begin to figure out character counters / item counters. imagine if in order to make dota 2 easier for the first time moba player: they LET YOU SEE THE ENTIRE MAP. sure that would ABSOLUTELY add to player awareness, map movement, and make the newbies time much easier... and then the competitive scene would be destroyed before it even begins because the developer chose to cater to beginners rather than ranked. i suppose a solution is to just create a "ranked game mode" that does away with iffs and nofog. << this is probably the best solution for newb / vet balancing.

    is it really so crucial to make the game as newbie friendly as possible? imho that is a recipe to kill longevity. and as midair dev's noted at PAX: the game has a surprising family friendly appeal << already not the best sign for a competitive scene to grow imo... but it's not necessarily damning either. the only one that even comes to mind as being both would be Rocket League, but that also has very small map(s), is based off of the most popular sport in the world, have 2v2/3v3/4v4 (not 10v10), have 5 minute games, etc etc. family friendly and competitive aren't mutually exclusive, just not a great bet based on current competitive v.g. scenes

    i've played in pugs with sleepy and it's clear t1 players are owning LD and t2/tv/leg/ta take to capping in midair like ducks to water because the iff system has been there. i also understand how iffs and nofog for all is in effect: a form of balance (if everyone has cheats, it is indeed balanced i guess). however, it is totally possible to simplify and streamline mechanics and maps without having nofog and iffs be the "balancing option".

    dont even get me started on non-cone cg, 3 clip nade launchers, hand nades that are just reloading placeholders (so you cant spam hn and shoot simultaneously). there's still work to do to the core of the game, just stinks nofog and iffs have been implemented so early and ppl seem to defend that decision... weird to me.

    i've enjoyed playing midair so far, and of course, this game is very far from being complete: but, all the more reason to have serious discussions about what other successful games have gone the route that midair seems to be going.
    Not-Dare and HeaDCReePS like this.
  4. HeaDCReePS

    HeaDCReePS Private Tester

    You have good points. There are a lot of questions and worries about how/if Midair's comp scene will develop and if it will last. There is also more options than just LT as base 7's or 10's could take off as well. Base has the counters and strats that will intrigue the types of players who enjoy that kind of game.

    I don't know if "small learning curve" fits Midair tho. For Tribes vets, its a small learning curve as it should be. For newcomers it's still really hard. 1. learning movement/weapons 2. learning how to play the game within the game. It's not hard to get where you're going in games such as dota, they don't have the Tribes problem. Load up Ascend and join a pub server...tell me how many of those players are actually good at running routes/navigating the map. Ascend isn't nearly as hard for cappers as far as skiing goes and it's still tough on people.

    I think with Midair we have to create a scene before we worry about the longevity of it. I know that sounds dumb but let's be honest, the Tribes community isn't enough to make this game last. It needs new players in a bad way. I think once the scene booms then we start talking about ranked modes and what not.
    Logic, shazb3d, Verna and 2 others like this.
  5. meph

    meph Member

    ya maybe i'm being cynical. but the market is SO saturated, so, to your point about "the Tribes community isn't enough to make this game last. It needs new players in a bad way." i agree, but actually think you should definitely be worried about longevity, even at this stage.

    if hardcore tribes fans who paid money to privately test this game keep re-hashing similar points... then there is a problem; because i agree, the tribes vets will enjoy the game almost universally to some degree, getting new fans is trickier. and given that there are about 400 games using THE SAME UE4 engine coming out between now and nov. 2017... like you (stork) said, you need the vets to WANT to be the foundation of a scene for which longevity is built on. making it less appealing to the comp scene is going about it backwards imo. unless of course, like the anecdotes made about family interest at PAX: you just go full bubble-gum anime pop aesthetic and hope the mechanics and engine are good enough to warrant comp scene...

    so, unless there was just hard objective evidence to support that 9/10 new players love nofog / iffs, just not sure it's good for the game at all. idk, i'm giving product development advice for something that will be free to play in over a year... i'm just bored do not mind me :\
    Not-Dare and HeaDCReePS like this.
  6. jEstEr

    jEstEr Instant Access

    As a filthy "mostly" T2 player here's my 5c reading Mephs posts:

    It's not T1
    Are you sure the T1 fog wasn't there as an engine limitation rather than a design feature ?
    If it were my flag, personally, and I insisted on having it out in the open for people to steal, I'd probably put some sort of homing beacon on it. Siri, where is my flag?
    You've played like 4 unfinished maps of one game type on a pre-alpha game, chillax already.

    Also, remake woodymyrk
    Nastyhobbit likes this.
  7. meph

    meph Member

    jester: don't mistake criticism for pessimism; i'm relaxed and happy to play the game knowing full well its in pre-alpha.

    but what is the point in paying money or participating in a pre-alpha if you have no actual gameplay / design feedback? other than, "hey this isn't t1 / t2 / tv / ta" ... except it's as close to them as any game being made right now. it doesnt have to BE them, but, no one wants to see the same mistakes being made over and over with this franchise.

    while computers definitely sucked in 98, and probably could probably not render nofog at high resolutions, there is plenty of evidence to suggest fog was a conscious design choice ( most notable to cut out sniping base to base, the visible terrain distance matching the IFF distance, things like that ).

    no one is saying the game has to resemble t1, but of all the possible shooters to clone, they chose tribes. being that t2 never gets made if t1 fails, i think it's fair place to start analyzing what made competitive t1 so successful that companies even bother sinking money into sequels or clones.

    you're not filthy for playing t2 <3
    Not-Dare likes this.
  8. jEstEr

    jEstEr Instant Access

    Fair point. I only played T1 casually, T2 competitively. I liked everything I saw in T2 and saw it as improvements on things that I thought sucked about T1 (woo built in happymod and jump.cs). I vividly remember when T2 came out and everyone was screaming "make T1 with better graphics", and I come here and I read "Make T1 with better graphics, also hats" and I get a bit concerned. I start thinking, am I so out of touch? No. It is the children who are wrong. If we make a game that appeals exclusively to hardcore T1 vets, then we will only get hardcore T1 vets playing?
  9. Shad

    Shad Private Tester

    Theres definitely some big T1 bias going around. Dont really care as long as the mechanics are clean and netcode as it is.
    Another point is that - outside of gameplay - clean products get new players nowadays. Try to get new players with T1/T2/TA observer features/huds? Forget it
    If you want to copy something off Dota/CSGO, then look at the design, huds, easiness of watching a cast on twitch.
    Underrate this aspect and you hurt yourself in the long run imo
    Logic and thecaptaintea like this.
  10. Schreq

    Schreq Private Tester

    Permanent flag iffs makes happymod style cheats useless, so that's nice. The same is somewhat true for fog. Less so and not for the big base maps obviously. I think more than anything, fog starts far away simply for aesthetic reasons.

    To make offense a bit harder and make lo more of a requirement, hand grenades need to be fixed. Off-hand throw which doesn't affect your main weapon, better visuals (smaller or no smoke trail), no delay on the throw. Also less random impulse which speeds people up when it should slow them down etc.
    Logic, Jon_Osc and HeaDCReePS like this.
  11. Mindflayr

    Mindflayr Moderator Staff Member

    Agreed and Done.
    jEstEr likes this.
  12. Verna

    Verna Instant Access

    Longevity of this game (both competitive as well as casual) will wholeheartedly depend mostly on the number of new players that are brought into the game. A solid player base needs to happen before any large-scale competitive atmosphere exists.

    I'm a big believer that everything (within reason) needs to be done to accommodate newer players who aren't familiar with fpsz games. I think the best solution is to have variety in the maps. With regards to fog, why can't we have maps that have heavy fog (Woody Murk, Pandemonium <3) and also have maps that don't? We can have maps where it's easy for the offense, and we can have maps where it's tough for offense. It all comes down to good, solid, map design.

    I think with LCTF it gets a big tricky because there isn't as much room to differentiate maps as compared to base maps.
    EmuPoacher, Nexjen89 and Jon_Osc like this.
  13. HeaDCReePS

    HeaDCReePS Private Tester

    I'm down with foggy maps. Raptor is pretty foggy and most people don't like that about it.

    Also verna just <3'd pande...not sure if we can trust this guy.
  14. Verna

    Verna Instant Access

    I also like Minotaur... what can I say, I'm a Siege player... I love mortar spam :)

    BOSSDOGGxXx Private Tester

    Minotaur was one of the best T2 maps easily, nothing wrong with that
  16. slush

    slush Private Tester

    right to left, left to right. repeat
  17. meph

    meph Member

    here is t1 being broken with just perma iffs ( not even nofog or flag iffs or giant arrow flags etc etc ) currently midair has more "traditional cheats" than this demo entitled "chasing with hacks" :D

    imho, nofog and perma flag iffs will never sustain/work in a competitive video game.

    idk, there's a reason in competitive cs:go you fade to black when you die ( obs'ing and communicating has been going on forever ) let alone ACTUALLY having map hacks lel.

    everyone really thinks this is a good idea? considering how almost ALL tribes games have had MAJOR fractures in the community due to cheating / anti-cheat measures, i'm whole-heartedly surprised ppl defend the current construction of nofog / permanent happyflag

    these posts aren't out of angst, just don't want to see this game cater all of it's principles around acquiring new players ( it's a niche genre anyway ) so much so that it just becomes one of the many f2p games on steam with no real comp scene. unless of course, as has been noted, the direction goes all out "bubblegum anime family friendly" in which case: add more "aiding devices" ( maybe arrows that show you optimal skiing paths, a different glowing IFF for teammates that have flag, a tutorial mode etc etc etc ) << not sarcasm, it's okay to double down on "family friendly" if that's what the market is showing interest in.

    this is why we have feedback and iterations oh hell ya!

    p.s. sorry for derailing stork guide, midair devs are awesome and accommodating
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
    Not-Dare likes this.
  18. Mindflayr

    Mindflayr Moderator Staff Member

    To Meph:

    T1 was "broken with hacks" when the first Ski Script was installed. Because objectively skiing was better holding down a key than mashing space bar. No Flag IFF was the only Tribes from 98-2001 when T2 Released. Since then 3 games over 15 years have had the Flag IFFs, Officially, Built into the game. So you constantly referring to it as a cheat is a silly argument that just points to a massive T1 bias.

    Im not saying there arent merits to your argument about whether or not they should exist, just pointing out that in mine (and i assume others) eyes your arguments seem less credible and more "because i like it that way because that's what t1 had". Argue the merits without the bias and you might find more support.

    Personally i played all 4 games, and thought flag hiding in T1 was boring as shit and slowed down the gameplay drastically, and feel PermIFF on flag was a good decision for t2 and its successors. Yes Flag Hiding emphasized other skills and communication (which is hard in a 16v16 pub), but the game just flowed better with FlagIFF. Shit even with FlagIFFs AND a Useless base most T:A pubs devolved into useless baseraping or Midfield deathmatch... what do you think any New->Average player is going to do playing CTF if he doesnt know where the flag is. Hes going to take the path of least resistance and go baserape or just duel. And eventually he'll get bored and leave.
    That doesnt mean I am right, but i think this not because its "just the way it was" as I was a T1 player first for years. But because I believe the Pros outweigh the cons.
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
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  19. meph

    meph Member

    ya i really hear ya, i just resent that fact that everyone boils my opinions down to "t1 bias". i was also a top 1% player in destiny. also a lvl 50 mlg playlist in halo 3. i'm good at competitive shooters, not just tribe.

    it's not borne out of lamenting the fall of t1; more so, my opinions are actually further buttressed by the fact that "Since then 3 games over 15 years have had the Flag IFFs" and NONE of them have had the competitive success that t1 did, let alone for the amount of time. ( did any tribe game have more than 100 team ladder in base other than t1? )

    i don't want "t1 with better graphics" etc etc -- but to claim that midair is somehow a COMPLETELY unique game is really naive. it's a tribes clone, period. so lets figure out what has worked and what hasn't in the series.

    you have AAA titles like division dropping 200% player base within a month of release. no man's sky generated far more money than midair and absolutely botched a multi-platform release. i really think people deny just how incredibly saturated the market is. it's hard for f2p indie games to grow, so i think it'll be a constant battle between "generating that foundation of comp scene" which is important to get the game off the ground, with also needing to make the game accessible to someone who has never heard of tribes. my argument would be that you have to separate core mechanics of casual / comp immediately. to try and make 1 game that universally hits both is REALLY hard and is a poor bet.

    if your reason for having happyflag is "well we don't want hiding"; again, i think you're reinforcing my point that the current aim is not conducive for the comp scene. having to understand the meta of where ppl might hide is WAY more on par with comp fps's than just showing you where the flag is at all times. it's an engine with training wheels to help the player who has never played an fpsz. imagine cs:go that highlights areas to camp, routes and angles to cover bomb sites: essentially you've created a bootcamp engine, not something that can sustain on ladder.

    idk it's fun to talk about game development <3 :)
    Not-Dare and HeaDCReePS like this.
  20. Mindflayr

    Mindflayr Moderator Staff Member

    I want to be clear meph. I know exactly who you are, and remember your name along with players like Nat slut slam etc. And I fully respect your opinions and everyones opinions, whether they just played t1, t2 , tv, le or ta. I just wanted to be clear about how it sounds to me being someone who played them all. Im not saying T1 was bad because it had no flag IFFs, to that point in my life it was the best game i ever played (and I was #1 in mechwarrior 2 on for over a year). Just saying that since I saw t1s physics (pretty close) added to the Vehicles, Bases, Mayhem of T2 in the Classic Mode, that the gameflow of having FlagIFFs was so much better as a Newbie-> Mid level player AND to spectators by a huge margin, that I am glad that is the current direction. If they decided to reverse that and Hide the Flag IFF, I would disagree with the decision but I'd still be playing daily from the minute base gets up and running.

    Yes, T2 did, in slow soupy physics base, even with half of tribals (including me) bailing to go back to T1. T2 Classic was a Mod that came out in late 2002 that further split the t2 community in half and still had 50 teams on the Ladder some of which you may remember like Vanguard (formerly s3).

    I Agree, I just think that Flag IFF was a net positive, and a pretty big one on Tribes gameplay. Just like I think the Loss of "Fog of War" from T1 & T2 in TV/TA/MA (currently) is a Net-Negative (I agree with you).

    I may be wrong (it's been known to happen), but I couldnt disagree with you more on this. Show me the Successfull Modern Title that Doesnt tell the players where the Objective of the current gametype is other than CS:GO where the entire objective is to plant a bomb and the maps are contained, and there is no advantage to be gained by running and hiding from everyone. If the point of Tribes main gametype was to bring the flag stealthily to 1 of two enemy bases and then defend it once it was there for a set time to win I would 100% agree that a FlagIFF is stupid. But thats not the game. There isnt 1 objective everyone on the map is following, there are 4 (base w/gens) or 2 (LT).

    I fully understood the No FlagIFF Meta of T1, I just decided it was stupid and detrimental to the flow and fun of tribes once I played a version where it was included. No I never used Happyflag or any shit like that in T1 in case you are wondering, as that was cheating, vs an Intended feature to Improve gameplay.
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