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Da Mortar Part 2

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Whitewhale, Aug 5, 2016.

  1. Whitewhale

    Whitewhale Instant Access

    So obviously this weapon needs alot of work, my first thread addressed some of the issues, may i present some videos as examples

    1) The splash is too big - im assuming at the moment this either hasnt really been looked at or is to compensate for the slow speed which makes it hard to hit with. Regardless the splash is way too big

    2) It fires really slowly through the air - this is the biggest issue, shots only a valley over take 5+ seconds to get there. This is the limiting factor in using it effectively, just like the TA mortar vs the second incarnation..the first was close to useless while the second was very powerful in the right hands. In this clip you can see it takes nearly 7 seconds to traverse one major valley

    3) The bounce is too slow - Not only is it too slow it really has only one mode...bounce like a beachball then stop. It is very hard to "run" it along the surface of bases/textures, instead it tends to pop up with a single bounce SLOOOWWWLLY then detonate. It means up close its basically purely area denial which is kinda dull compared to the trick plays you could do with the t1 and TA fusion mortar deluxe

    In general this weapon needs to faster firing/loading, travel faster through the air, bounce faster with more capacity for player influence and have a smaller splash

    Thank you
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2016
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  2. ellbee

    ellbee Instant Access

    this is a good report, great work field agent. now we just need to get those nerds in the lab working on this.
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  3. Whitewhale

    Whitewhale Instant Access

    For anyone who missed it this was my first report on detonation times, bounce time and firing speed

  4. slush

    slush Private Tester

    cosign on all accounts
  5. DeathHavoc

    DeathHavoc Instant Access

    Agreed -- right now it's mainly effective to abuse the large radius in semi-close range situations, and for destroying bases. It's too slow to hit far, moving targets to a point where it feels like luck versus skill.

    BTW that bounce video was perfect to communicate the frustration of the bounce :)
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  6. Rooster128

    Rooster128 Instant Access

    i dont think mid air mortaring was a smart idea personally- at least it needs some arming time while in mid-air to prevent the pointblank mortar carnage we've been seeing
  7. Mindflayr

    Mindflayr Moderator Staff Member

    Agreed. this is something that was tested recently in TA (Sept-Jan) with changing the mortar timer. I believe we went down to .5s and it was super easy to abuse it. Believe we ended up back at either .75s or 1s so it could still midair people at range, but not point blank or even short range.
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  8. Rooster128

    Rooster128 Instant Access

    it really should be more like 2 - 3 seconds
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  9. Mindflayr

    Mindflayr Moderator Staff Member

    Thats longer than you think. We tried a bunch of different timings. 0s is ridiculous. .5s is still too easy to use to intentionally MA at short range. .75s was where it began to feel good, but ppl felt it was still to close to MA GL to seem right for the mortar, and at 1s we found a happy medium. When we tried 1.5,2 etc it basically took it away as an "intentional option", ie people stopped aiming for MA mortars as a valid tactic if they really wanted to get the kill. It made more sense to switch to another weapon. It went back to MA mortars being super rare and generally only shot at vehicles due to huge hitbox. Thats why we went back to 1s, where if you had it out and got engaged, but were good enough with it, you might try to MA mortar that LD before switching to something else, and HoFs could MA mortar cappers instead of having the shell bounce off because of the timer.

    Obviously this is a different game and now is the time to test it, but IMO testing should be around the .75-1.5s range. Anything more and its pretty much relegated to ranged spam only.
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  10. Whitewhale

    Whitewhale Instant Access

    2 seconds is about right IMO , TA was pretty ez to hit MA mortars (well for what ur going for )

    3 is a pretty long shot , under 2 is a bit close IMO
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  11. Mindflayr

    Mindflayr Moderator Staff Member

    I guess its all preference between the .75s-2 s range depending on how many MA Mortars you want to see. I personally want more than T1/t2/TV had. I like it being something you can actually try to do against vehicles, and something more than just a novelty vs players. That said it shouldnt be super short or its just stupid.
  12. Nastyhobbit

    Nastyhobbit Moderator Staff Member

    +1 for mortars taking 2 seconds to "arm"
    +1 for mortars and grenades traveling through the air a fraction faster
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    TTHREAZ New Member

    IMO MA mortars should not be commonplace. They need to remain the beautiful unicorns they were in the earlier games. :D
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  14. SADDAM

    SADDAM Member

    So, I started typing this originally in reply to WW's post in the weapon-switch-on-empty -thread, but realized it probably fits better here.

    Soo - the mortar.

    I have to chime in on WWs tangent in the previous thread where he said "mortar has low relative ammot count".

    I agree.

    The mortar ammo count *feels* pretty low compared to older games.

    I realize it's exactly the same number as in T1/T2.

    But, while the mortar is about as effective vs players as in the old games (damage-wise), the assets are much, much beefier, and I feel the players are relatively faster.

    I don't feel my aim is that good that I can comment on the outdoors thing with much authority, so I'll just leave it at the fact that when the players are *relatively* faster, it means you both have less opportunities to nail them with LRS, and that it also will be more difficult to do so (=smaller target window = more misses).

    Then there is the whole asset game.

    In T2, you needed 1 mortar for a whole group of invos. Now you need something like 3 for the same thing. Mine-nade-mortar would disable any generator within your FOV in a few seconds, now you need to spam half your clip to take the gen down.

    I realize this is to tone down the rape game so you can't completely trash a base just by gatecrashing it it and hopping through it while pooping a trail of green eggshells in your wake without actually stopping anywhere in-between (eg. either you stop for a few seconds to take out an asset,giving defense/respawns a time to catch up & fight you, or you keep going but leave the assets usable for the D). Fine, so be it.

    But really, playing HO ATM is nowhere near as fun as previously.

    Using plasma so much - just to conserve mortar ammo all the time - just does not *feel* right.

    Me big. Me stronk. Me make boom. Pew-pew, for babbies. Babby not me.

    Heavy = mortar. If you can't make strong use of it, what's the point of picking heavy over the other two weight classes?

    Which is to say, if you're not going to make major adjustment to the other mortar parameters, I'd really recommend/wish you you up the mortar ammo count just a wee bit(2?). It would probably not hurt the overallgame much, and would make playing heavy that 20% more fun/heavy.

    Also, general bump because agree with all of WW's points in the OP.

    The Bounce and lack of "running" along surfaces is probably the personally most aggrevating thing about it to me ATM.
    Whitewhale likes this.
  15. SoundGuy

    SoundGuy Private Tester

    Arsenal Pack (Give up some mobility/energy for "unlimited" ammo)
    Kinetic Pack (More mobility, but less ammo)

    You have to make choices.

    If they gave enough ammo with Kinetic Pack (For example) why would anyone choose the Arsenal Pack?
    If they give too much "survivability" with Arsenal Pack why would anyone choose Aegis Pack?

    I will tell you that I am not a "huge" fan of the augment system, but it is the choice the DEVs made.

    *Mortar (And Grenade Launcher) need more speed out of the gun IMHO*
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
  16. SADDAM

    SADDAM Member

    I realize that. But if you're reading between the lines, you can kind of see me saying that having to make those choices as they currently are, kinda suck and don't make for a more fun game.

    Aresenal pack is something I'd see using when you're OOB spamming and for protection relying mainly on the fact that you're so far out people won't bother coming to duel you unless you really piss them off (or having an invo nearby where you can heal up/switch pack if needed). If you're expecting any kind of CQB it really feels like a massively gimped choice compared to the other two (not survivable, not maneuverable enough).

    Epack is nice, and I like it, but again, I feel like I'm out of ammo in a Jiffy, because of the asset changes and relative player speeds. Especially notable on those maps that you can kinda "compare" gameplay, like DX/Outpost99. Plus, chain rapes you up, like late T2 post-legal-interpolate's and Tribe Assends ugly bastard child, but I'm sure that'll eventually be balanced out.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
  17. SoundGuy

    SoundGuy Private Tester

    Its why changes are coming to it.

    If they gave you (or any player) enough ammo to make you happy with Kinetic, there would be no need for Arsenal Pack.
  18. SADDAM

    SADDAM Member

    I didn't ask for them to give me unlimted ammo.

    I made a note of other gameplay changes the game has made, and why those changes effect mortar ammo consumption, and level of fun, in a negative way.

    I offered my own suggestion to balance out the problem. The devs may or may not agree with the solution (or source problem), but I doubt their end goal is "make the game less fun". At the end of the day, I feel like I find myself being annoyingly out of mortar ammo before dying more here than I did in T2.

    I mean, I could switch to an arsenal pack, but that would not really fix the actual problem (having fun) .

    Sure, I'd have all the ammo I'd ever need, but If I always end up dying way faster than with the epack or spack (because it's a suboptimal pack for those usage scenarios), I'm not really having any more fun, am I? Thus, the original problem persists.

    Choices should be meaningful. But choices should also be fun, feel real and not artificially forced. "Creative Constraints" is hopefully a meme we can leave behind.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
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  19. Pumpelche

    Pumpelche Instant Access

  20. chemdawg

    chemdawg Private Tester

    I think a really cool part of T2 was that if your defense screws up and leaves an HO in the gen room by themselves (even a med shield pack) they can have the gens down within a few seconds if they are right next to eachother. I.E. mine/nade/mortar combo gg for gens.

    In this game it takes you considerable amount of time to get the gens down even if you're in the room alone. If there's two or three people on you it's way harder. I haven't played many games as HO so I really can't speak too much on this, but I'd definitely like to see the assets be a little easier to destroy.