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Dev Build 0.30.0 - Let's Talk About It

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by KindaGamey, Feb 6, 2018.

  1. Wildefyr

    Wildefyr Instant Access

    Yes, let us kill the remaining active playerbase who give feedback to the devs and find bugs in favour of having very rarely two or three people in a public game.

    Public games died of their own accord and at the very worst pickups have affected them very little.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
    Dose likes this.
  2. Tiberius Khan

    Tiberius Khan Alpha Access

    What feedback could they be giving that helps the game as a whole when all they do is play LCTF pugs? How does that help balance in base CTF or Arena or Rabbit or any other potential gametype?

    If the game cannot support even an occasional pub at this stage then something is seriously wrong and THAT should be the focus. The fact that people are constantly complaining about the situation with pugs means that they still care enough to keep hoping for the best, but eventually they're just going to give up and puggers really will be all that is left. Clearly nothing is changing as the game gets closer and closer to release so unless a drastic change is made the devs will realize they've been fooled into making a game for a few dozen players.
     
    KindaGamey and Whitewhale like this.
  3. lazy

    lazy New Member

    Maybe if the only gametype that's played is LCTF then that's what the devs should cater to...
     
    miri and joe like this.
  4. Ravesty

    Ravesty Private Tester

    Development on base the last 2 years has slowly improved the gametype, but that is a long period of time for people to remain interested in a small indie game. A lot of people from KS have moved on and there aren't enough interested people left to pub a gametype that has played pretty poorly (relative to its predecessors) this whole time.

    Meanwhile, LT was pretty much feature complete by KS, and it plays pretty well to boot (again, relative to its predecessors), so it has been pugged by a small group of people who have little interest in (midair's) base. It doesn't really get pubs either though, because it doesn't offer newbs any low-mechanics roles to get eased in and all there is to do is get crushed by better players who would rather not pub with them anyway.

    Improving balance in base isn't really the big issue, nor is it something that would magically get people to play it. It's a gametype that AT clearly tried to mold into something that appeals to tribes vets and newer-gen casuals (see recent spawn changes), while bringing their own spin to the genre (see pack system). However, speaking strictly in terms of gameplay, I think base needed to actually work from a much earlier stage to gain any traction. A lot of KS folks left when they saw a game that didn't really live up to t1/t2 other than in the LT department. And I know it isn't completely fair to compare midair to games/studios that were working with much larger budgets than AT, but I think a functional base game was certainly within their reach if they ensured that all the major gameplay mechanics were in place earlier.

    Specifically, I think not implementing MDs was a major oversight that resulted in a chaotic capper-dominated game and made heavies much harder to deal with. Also, standoffs were always horrible without concs (which were just put in the game btw, VGW!) I saw attempts to address these issues through different means (e.g. shield impulse changes to buff HOFs against cappers, shield bleed to wear down heavies instead of dying quickly to MDs, flag FFs to limit turtling), but these didn't always hit the mark, or they were half-measures that didn't appreciate the full gravity of the items they were intended to replace. On another note, the vehicles also left much to be desired. I can't really blame them for not making the greatest vehicles, but I think base flag play could have been greatly improved from a much earlier point if they looked more closely at the game they drew the most inspiration from (t2c), and thought hard before just omitting one of the most important mechanics from that game (MDs).
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
    Nark, Pumpelche and SeymourGore like this.
  5. Whitewhale

    Whitewhale Instant Access

    T1 did fine without concs and other bandaids

    Most of the LT only pug crowd aren’t from LT focussed games (legions, t2, ta) so unless this is a new development for then I question the accuracy of the statement

    It’s Prima donnas who will take their ball and go home and now believe rightly or wrongly they hold the keys to the kingdom

    If development ends up focusing on these guys (which will happen) then it’s game over before it began
     
    Fixious and Pumpelche like this.
  6. ramses0

    ramses0 Member

    IMHO, there is still great progress being made with Midair. IMHO (and I've stated elsewhere) the Missile Launcher was required to make "Base" viable... it's the only way to project damage for Medium/Heavy moving at 0kph (guarding stand) when chasing a light moving 150kph+), and that only was added just before December release.

    Mechanically, Light-CTF is "perfect" in the sense that at high levels of play, it's relatively "fair" (most attacks have solid counter-attacks or more than one option to resolve). There hasn't been a lot of balance which changes LCTF other than some adjustments to skiing which seems to have helped.

    To get Base-CTF "as well balanced" as Light-CTF will require much more high-level play, tuning and focus. Right now that (to me) is one of the biggest risks.

    Think: "Rocket League" ... the main menu for MidAir needs a "casual" v. "competitive" tab. Boom. Problem solved: "Why is it that there are only competitive matches every night?" => "Well, either be competitive or play casual... the game is still early access, so without a large pool of casual players, it's the competitive players who are finding bugs and gameplay balance issues."

    Then, what are the options for casual players? (keeping in mind F2P progression)

    1) You must start light, blaster, chain, disc, no matter what, at least for a few hours

    Arena: kindof falls over... maybe have a minimum level requirement?
    Rabbit: perfect except you can't ever 'nade anybody. Rabbit w/ a blaster? Please. That's kindof wrong.
    LCTF: You'd do alright with blaster/chain/disc, but will really want to buy either plasma or grenade launcher
    Base: Inventory stations can never give you anything other than health if you start off that way.

    2) Looking at the "unlock tree" ... one part of it is currently unlocking player weapons, consider also tying it to unlocking gametypes.

    3) F2P Day One Player, what do they see?

    Casual:
    ======
    Tutorial: start now! 1v0 local play! 1v3 online play!
    Rabbit (1v3): (MinLevel=1 && must have completed tutorial) || $buy_now_only_30_dollars
    LCTF (5v5): (MinLevel=3 && must have unlocked GL, Energy, Kinetic) || $buy_now_only_30_dollars
    Arena (?v?): (MinLevel=5 && must have unlocked Medium) || $buy_now_only_30_dollars
    Base (7v7+): (MinLevel=7 && must have unlocked Heavy) || $buy_now_only_30_dollars

    Competitive:
    =========
    ...all unlocked, all weapons, skills, packs, etc. but you must have paid $30 to unlock competitive matches...

    So casuals will rabbit around a bunch, maybe try and figure out LCTF, then unlock Arena (w/medium) and Base (w/Heavy)

    I guess kindof making "Base" the end goal for F2P unlockers, as they can "finally play base!".

    ...it's actually really really delicate to grow/keep a community when there are so many moving parts w/ gameplay modes, mechanics, speeds, etc.

    Think again back to Rocket League. It's a car. It goes. There are no settings / options / etc other than trying to make it look cooler. All the different gameplay modes are basically "more cars or less cars".

    Midair is "too complicated" compared to Rocket League (and with reason), but the places where Midair loses v. Rocket League is that it doesn't have "good" 1v1 or 2v2 content, has longer match times, looks a bit more "dry", not "shiny". The things where RL and MA are equal actually have to do with them both being "physics-based multiplayer movement based shooters".

    It's freaking hard to intercept the ball in RL at first while trying to derpy drive and float off the walls / ceiling / etc like some mix between monster trucks and spiderman. Same way in MA it's really hard to "ski" and get above ... ummm 150kph and cross the stand L/R or swoop at 120+ and actually grab the flag and not get pancaked by discs on your way out of the bowl.

    So lets say both require 10-20 hours of pure "movement in circles" before you can "move with intention" (ie: impact balls on command in RL. Maybe get a few goalie-blocks, or flip-kicks into enemy goal). With MA, you should be able to reliably get from one side to the other with a basic front-clear / e-grab-walk after a few hours, and you should also be able to UNDERSTAND why people are grabbing flags off you if you're playing home-d-ish.

    Summary:
    - Casual v. Competitive tabs should eventually be "mandatory before F2P release"
    - In addition to unlocking armor and weapons, it makes sense to also unlock certain gameplay modes contingent on certain armors/weapons
    - LCTF requires GL, Arena requires Medium Armor, Base requires Heavy Armor (minimally, kindof makes sense).
    - I still advocate for more 1v0 => 1v3 content. I honestly think tutorial maps/content should be "invisibly multiplayer" by default
    - I still advocate for at least 1-2 more "1v0 => 1v3" content / tutorials, each capped at max 4 players, no friendly fire, and 5-10 minute rounds (casual / beginner play).
    - Route Race or "flag-to-flag-timer"... cap number of people in multiplayer tutorial at 4. Ding everybody's screen: "ramses0, red-to-blue, 11.23 seconds". Keep last ten times, turn off friendly fire, and you've just taught people how to ski for HOOOUUUURRRRSSS, either solo or competing with somebody.
    - Target Practice: Just random objects spewing from the rabbit flag stands every 5-10 seconds. Fly in circles, try to MA while on the move. Disable friendly fire, etc. get 100 points for MA, 25 for splash, 1 point per CG hit, etc. "ramses0, in 3rd place, with 321 points after 5m". HOOOOUUUUURRRRSSSS for HUUUUNNNDRRRREEEDSSS of NEEEWWWBIIIIEEEEESSSS who are playing for FREEEEEEEEE.
    - It'd take like 10 hrs to make one (or both) of these "1v0 => 1v3" game modes AND NEWBIES WOULD HAVE SOMETHING TO PLAY OTHER THAN PUGS WHERE THEY ARE GOING TO GET REKT 9999% OF THE TIME.

    ...while there has been a ton of discussion regarding Casual v. competitive/organized play (ie: PUGS), there is only so much "The Midair Community" can do (and honestly, only so much "The Development Team" can do as well). Right now, the community is driving the ferrari that is Midair b/c it's all the competitive players looking for hardcore defects in gameplay and physics. We don't have the minivan/pickup truck in order to bring casuals along with us. And I count myself as a casual being dragged by a rope behind our fancy ferrari (or pumpleche's favorite car with the italian/swedish name I don't remember).

    "The Community" can only do what is possible with the tools/game we have, and I continue to advocate for tools to help get casuals hooked / trained / playing for long hours and buying this game. They won't buy the game if they can't have fun, and you should see that LCTF for n00bs is NotFun(tm). Base for f2p n00bs will also be NotFun(tm). They can't drive tanks, they can't get into a heavy, they will get murderized by turret farms that they can't deploy themselves, and will cry: "p2w, p2w!"

    Tutorial Content. Max 4 players. Friendly Fire OFF! Shoot-da-gun. Run-da-route. Thank you.

    Server List:
    --------------
    Local-Learn2Ski (0 0f 0 running locally)

    TrainingGrounds-Rabbit (0 of 4 in server)
    TrainingGrounds-RouteRace (2 of 4 in server)
    TrainingGrounds-Target Practice (1 of 4 in server)

    Competitive-Rabbit (6 of 10 in server)
    Competitive-LCTF (10 of 10 in server)
    Competitive-Base (14 of 32 in server)
    Competitive-Arena (8 of 8 in server)

    Casual-LCTF (8 of 16 in server)
    Casual-Base (24 of 32 in server)
    Casual-Arena (5 of 16 in server)

    Thank you again for listening.
     
  7. Egg

    Egg Member

    It's obvious you don't play pugs. But you have no idea about the conversations held in there. People often sit in a channel for a long time (including me) talking about features they'd like to see, what's not working and overall improvements that the dev team could make. Yeah, we do play games. But you'd be surprised what goes on in there...
     
    Dose likes this.
  8. Whitewhale

    Whitewhale Instant Access

    Such as ?

    There is crossover but I can’t see how lctf pugs provide feedback regarding base