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Spawn CTF

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Descolada, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. Descolada

    Descolada Private Tester

    This thread isn't going to touch on whether or not traditional base gameplay is better or not. It's also not really going to talk about spawn from a pub perspective because to be honest I don't think people give a shit about gameplay or whether or not the game even functions, just that they aren't frustrated while playing. But from making the game as good as possible from a high level perspective I see two ways forward ---

    1) Increase the spawn times up to around 6ish seconds for a light and 12 for a heavy. Adding a sniper rifle would push the light up to around 9ish and the same for a medium. Ideally the loadout screen would communicate information in a manner such that each item adds X amount of spawn time i.e. selecting a ring launcher adds .5 seconds to your spawn time or something to that effect. Essentially the idea here is that more power=longer spawn time. It replicates to some extent the time it would take in traditional base gameplay to suit up in a heavier armor and then go on an offense run or whatever else you wanted to do. The sniper is because they're aids and need a bandaid.

    From here the generator also needs to increase the spawn timer to an even greater degree, something on the order of a 2x multiplier. This would quickly lead to the team with their generator down being behind in terms of timing, two spawn waves would effectively be a lost offensive run. It makes the game slower but base was never about frentic pacing - it's always been a slower, more strategic game mode.

    2) Make the armors more homogeneous. This is what t;a did to some extent, and personally I think it's a more boring kind of gameplay. Since everyone has the same spawn time (except for snipers) letting someone have more power by virtue of selecting heavy armor isn't something that can happen. So the armors need to be closer together and more balanced so that variety can be maintained and people use something instead of only light or heavy or whatever else happens to be overpowered.

    Personally I would greatly prefer option 1. I think it's still worse than traditional gameplay but within the confines of spawn ctf I think that it is the closest way to replicate that kind of gameplay. Realistically even with a maximum spawn timer of 24 seconds it's still roughly equivalent or faster than getting to the fight in something like overwatch or battlefield where spawn time+walking time can easily hit close to a minute.

    Spawn also lets some other stuff in that previously would have been quite frustrating to players. Mine discs can come back for all armors since a base camp is no longer as punishing with the ability to spawn in heavy to clear out the base. This was mostly the context in which mine discs were problematic. Stopping cappers becomes significantly easier when a single defender can one shot them at the flag stand.

    A separate turret generator can also be added that shuts off deployables (very important that its separate) because they are no longer needed to help defend a trashed base. Ideally it would be a secondary objective, and harder to take out than simply killing all of the farm. It could be trapped behind a forcefield powered behind the generator, or far away from the base, or any other number of mechanisms to incentivize destroying it without making it trivial.
     
    LM SpydeR and joe like this.
  2. Ravesty

    Ravesty Private Tester

    I would also like to see some changes to spawn timers that roughly align with the power of your loadout. I don't think you have to increase them that much for medium/heavy though; you got these loadouts at about the same rate with naked spawns, and they're already slower to get across the map. Something in the 5-10 second range for light to heavy (with gens up) would probably work well.

    I think the most important thing with the spawn timers is to limit the defense's most powerful items so that offense can actually be useful beyond timing clears within a very narrow time frame for their cappers. That's why I think spawning with the railgun should be higher (e.g. 10 seconds like in TA). I don't think mine discs are as necessary for spawn CTF because between the D spawning in loadout w/ railguns and the O being out on the map more overall since they don't have to suit up, there should be more opportunities to stop cappers. If mine disc was in the game, I would consider giving light defenders with MD a higher spawn time, similar to the railgun, due to its ability to stop cappers.

    One of the issues with spawn CTF (i.e. TA) is that the flag generally dominates the game and the base is virtually worthless. I think it would be good to explore options that make killing the base more valuable, despite the enemy team spawning in loadout regardless. Ideally this would give players more objectives to target for attacking or defending, which should spread the action away from the flag and increase the strategic depth of the game. The dead gen spawn multiplier is a good first step. Although you could make the gens as strong as you wanted with that variable, I wouldn't increase it much past 2x the regular spawn because that might make the spawns too long for ppl who want the convenience of spawn CTF. I think you want to add base objectives that affect the enemy in other ways - separate generators that cut power to deployables or severely limit your ammo count, for example.

    Then you take all the attributes you want the base/gens to provide (i.e. power to base assets, power to deployables, spawn time reduction, spawn ammo increase, etc.) and spread them across different assets, maybe 2 seperate gens, depending on the map. I say 2 because base inventories (and all the self-powered invo huts/towers) are worthless to target in spawn CTF, so more of the base's power ends up concentrated in the one generator already. 2 gens in separate locations would spread the action around and give the O more options to affect the enemy team and force the D to prioritize what they want to keep up.
     
    joe likes this.
  3. Nastyhobbit

    Nastyhobbit Private Tester

    this is my biggest gripe with HCTF and tbh i won't be sold on it until there's a solid reason for attacking/defending a base. losing your gens has to hurt, spawn ppl 100m behind your base as well as a significant time penalty. sorta like losing a control point in bf1/tf2 pushes your spawn further away from the action etc.
     
  4. Whitewhale

    Whitewhale Instant Access

    12 seconds to spawn in heavy , they are not necessarily "more powerful" they simply play specific roles

    They are not more powerful at capping or chasing that's for sure , or duelling without shield pack

    12 seconds is insanely long

    Game is supposed to be fun
     
  5. SeymourGore

    SeymourGore #1 Stinkiest NA

    They could sell gameplay unlocks that will shorten the respawn timer. Great success!

    Not sure if respawn timers should be considered until after base is content complete and we could say for sure timers are needed to make things work.
     
    Whitewhale and Nastyhobbit like this.
  6. Nastyhobbit

    Nastyhobbit Private Tester

    would be happy to see this roll back to LCTF loadouts as default kit in base. then go from there.

    or keep this as a new mode called HCTF and limit it to no generator maps (tolar, elite, bryn etc)
     
    p0ke and Whitewhale like this.
  7. jti261

    jti261 Member

    A even longer spawn time would turn a lot of people off considering the instant action is what intrigue ppl most. A alternative to keep the fast pace and balance could be:

    Generators go down then a slightly longer spawn time, farm, base assets, vehicles, and **force fields** go down. The key to all of it being

    you can deploy 2 force field walls as engineer that become permanent for the match or Devs place them as part of the map that limit the direction a capper can grab from.

    It would make sense that a generator controls those types of things that greatly effect a offense from being successful.

    Even in LCTF and extremely small maps you don't get constant pressure. The defense normally gets a breather for a few seconds before the next wave reaches so putting emphasis on a longer spawn time might not be best if people complain about it being slow already. It seems with Midair's floaty physic's it takes longer to get to bases than the bullet type physics that T2 had that needed invo's so slow pressure down.

    Do away with invos completely, learn to K out, much more effective.

    If you don't agree with a type of force field mechanic being able to limit cappers routes then I feel a Mine Disc will be needed to have a chance in spawn CTF. Would allow the best defender in the game to win a 1v1 against the best capper in the game *most of the time* and even out the pressure a offense can bring with spawning in loadout.
     
  8. Wildefyr

    Wildefyr Instant Access

    I know personally spawn timers annoy the hell out of me, even if they are needed for balance. Anyway, these suggestions about the railgun being 10 second spawns seem a good way to keep sniper numbers low, but I'd counter that it won't be as effective because a turret monkey can place down a portable invo, player spawns in lower spawn time loadout then hops in the portable invo when he has a free second. Often spawning sooner is a much bigger advantage than spawning with sniper.

    My other issue is that these sort of spawn systems aren't generally well communicated and new players will get frustrated with this system because they won't understand why they are spawning quicker sometimes but then most of the time much longer.
     
    Nastyhobbit likes this.
  9. KindaGamey

    KindaGamey Instant Access

    I mean, you could have a spinner or load wheel which is counting until they get to play and like Sim City ("generating splines") it's talking you through the respawn timer: "preparing your spinfusor... generating heavy armor..." to indicate to the player that their choices have consequences, but yeah, this is a new ADHD world. No one wants to wait for anything anymore. (And maybe they shouldn't have to?)

    I've got to be honest though, I love just starting in my medium armor with a repair gun. Let's keep moving things in the fun direction. Competitiveness happens organically, fun needs to be encouraged.
     
  10. slush

    slush Private Tester

    Need a timer hud...im just clicking non stop til i respawn
     
    Gorthaur and Jon_Osc like this.
  11. KindaGamey

    KindaGamey Instant Access

    hey guys, I just thought of an idea you will all hate.

    instead of taking you out of the game, what if when you engaged the inv station it brought up free floating panels that hang in the air showing a basic armor / weapon 1 / 2 / 3 / pack / grenade (icons if you got it, if not, use text, who cares) where you navigate by pointing at a panel with your mouse or use WASD keys (AD to go to the next panel and WS to change up and down. that way you can just tap tap tap tap tap tap tap done out. like morse code.) If you push your loadout number it just sets them all accordingly. otherwise you would be a new clone born from the loadout blueprint of the previous person in the inv. tap tap tap tap tap and go. make a small change, decide to resave that as your loadout or not... maybe you just getting crazy for the day. if you walk away from the inv the panels fade away. new players would have to learn about loadouts, people would try more things, it would be less jarring. no? ok, fine.
     
  12. Gorthaur

    Gorthaur Instant Access

    Being able to spawn in any loadout is broken and makes base too simplistic. When they can spawn in loadout a decent lone wolf sniper can dominate the game and when you have multiple snipers the flag game comes to a grinding halt. Respawn timers were not adequate in TA. The spawn time increase/lack of visual timer at the moment is very frustrating already. Need to limit the cheesy weapons and equipment like mines, snipe, turrets, and shields by forcing people to go to at least go to deployed ammo stations.

    Core spawning in generic light, medium, heavy loadouts with no packs fixes this. Players have many more options, defense is not free to spam mines and turrets everywhere, offense gets slowed down a bit when base is down because they have no packs, and the gens and stations remain relevant. In order to be most effective you must loot enemies you kill for their equipment or visit an inventory or deployed ammo station. If lights have grenade launcher and mediums have a good close range dueling weapon, an overabundance of heavies should not be a problem because no energy and no shield.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017 at 5:00 PM
    Whitewhale and SeymourGore like this.
  13. thaemlitz

    thaemlitz New Member

    As long as classes and weapon combinations are balanced among themselves, there's really no such risk. And as someone else already mentioned, if you tied the generator to everything other than the core gameplay (ammo, base assets, vehicles etc.), there'd be no compromise as far as depth and strategy are concerned. It's just that CTF would still be played as CTF rather than Siege plus that one dude who grabs the flag every two minutes.
     
  14. HautSoss

    HautSoss New Member

    Why on Earth would you worry about the base in spawn. It usually is an obstacle for standoffs / aesthetics / route alteration .. things like that. But what do I know.
     
  15. Whitewhale

    Whitewhale Instant Access

    Yeah no kidding

    Unfortunately most packs and weapons are not balanced and have not been seriously looked at since inception

    Core spawn is a good idea from TA, spawning engineers and snipers shuts the game down
     
    HautSoss likes this.